ScoreHero
Home | Forum | Wiki
Inbox [ Login ]Inbox [ Login ]
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist
ProfileProfile Log inLog in
Trogdor info?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ScoreHero Forum Index -> Technique, Style, and Gameplay -> Guitar/Bass
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sixstringcal  
 




Joined: 17 May 2016
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:28 pm    Post subject: Trogdor info? Reply with quote

Hey,
Hi I have been looking into trying to do a FSFC. I'm not the best right now and I'm not aiming for anytime soon to finish it, but rather by my 40s. A while ago I read up on trogdor and found it could not be FCed on NTSC, but recently I have just been super confused on this topic. I originally read something on it being due to the xplorer controller (which I was later told was false). I also heard about strum limit (is this put into effect by the developers or what?) and swap magic (which doesn't make sense to me). I then heard about witwix supposedly FCing trogdor on ps2 NTSC but then heard that he said it was fake and then heard that someone hacked his account and it wasn't fake and now I'm confused on what is real and what is not witwix-wise. I have also heard that the NTSC PAL thing only mattered on ps2 because of output frequency which seems stupid to me because then can't you just not worry about the display? I have heard people saying that it has been FCed on Xbox by one person because of the TV ran on 50hz.

Bottom line, if I want the Trogdor FC, what do I need to do? Do I need a PAL PS2 with PAL TV and PAL game? Do I need it on PS2 (I play it on Xbox currently because it has more songs)? Do I just need a 50hz TV? Do i need to mod something?

Also, anything else I should look for on FSFC?

Thanks in advance!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: Sixstringcal
The760  
 




Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 82
Location: NY

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You aren't FC'ing it on NTSC. That's it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: teh760
LocalH  
 




Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 1346
Location: slowly working on SuperGH2

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The strum limit is affected by the framerate due to the game running some of its logic in vsync, I believe. That is why Troggy is hittable on PAL normal speed and NTSC slow, and not vice versa (it's my understanding that it's as unhittable on PAL slow as it is NTSC regular speed). Technically I don't believe it's unhittbale, just that it requires frame-exact accuracy to hit (gl with that).

All you need to run GH2 in PAL is either an original Swap Magic disc, a softmod and GS Mode Synthesizer, or a PAL copy of GH2 (can be original or a modified NTSC disc, but either way would require a PAL PS2 for an original disc or a modded NTSC PS2 for a modded disc). You'll also need a TV that can sync at 50Hz, and the only real way to know is to try it on your TV.
_________________


Alakaiser wrote:
POST BECAUSE YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY, NOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GingerBraFace  
 




Joined: 27 Mar 2016
Posts: 340
Location: Santraginus V

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can use OPL or something to run the PAL version of the game on an NTSC console. That works just fine.
_________________
Please, call me Ginger :D

Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Visit poster's website XBL Gamertag: GingerBraFace PSN Name: GingerBraFace Wii Friend Code: 390546319559
Sixstringcal  
 




Joined: 17 May 2016
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to confirm, PS2 only running as PAL? Is it the PAL game or PAL System that implements the strum limit? Has anyone tried using a TAS emulator on NTSC to confirm that frame-perfect strumming could make it possible? If nobody has yet, I will certainly try.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: Sixstringcal
x.wlp  
 




Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly if you really want a Trogdor FC that badly. You're going to have to use swap magic and even then it can still take a while. It took me a combined 6 hours of grinding to get lucky enough to hit the strumming. Doing it on NTSC just won't happen i'm sorry to say.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website XBL Gamertag: xWLP
LocalH  
 




Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 1346
Location: slowly working on SuperGH2

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sixstringcal wrote:
Just to confirm, PS2 only running as PAL? Is it the PAL game or PAL System that implements the strum limit? Has anyone tried using a TAS emulator on NTSC to confirm that frame-perfect strumming could make it possible? If nobody has yet, I will certainly try.
It's more like the note windows shrink based on their distance from each other, and since the input is read once per frame, the limit comes from the relationship between how often the game reads input and the size of the note window. That's my theory, anyway, although noboy knows for 100% sure. Thus, it's when the game is running at 50Hz (whether the system or game is PAL or NTSC region) that Trogdor becomes hittable. This is why you can use SwapMagic or GSM on an NTSC PS2 with an NTSC game and basically get the PAL version. You can also acquire the PAL version of the game and run it, with SwapMagic, ESR, OPL, or any other game launching method on a modded NTSC system and get it to work. You can elect to use an original PAL disc on an unmodded PAL system, but that's probably the most expensive method. If you're already modded, GSM is basically free.

Good luck chugging along with the old version of PCSX2 that has rerecording facilities to try to get it to work. Another method would be to program an external bot to recognize the system's vsync signal and playback Trogdor's chart frame-accurately, through the controller port.
_________________


Alakaiser wrote:
POST BECAUSE YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY, NOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GingerBraFace  
 




Joined: 27 Mar 2016
Posts: 340
Location: Santraginus V

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sixstringcal wrote:
Just to confirm, PS2 only running as PAL? Is it the PAL game or PAL System that implements the strum limit? Has anyone tried using a TAS emulator on NTSC to confirm that frame-perfect strumming could make it possible? If nobody has yet, I will certainly try.


The hit windows, as far as I can tell, are only effected by the region of the game not the console. I use a PAL console with the NTSC version of the game to run it in progressive scan. When I run the NTSC version, my TV shows the output as being 60hz. When I use the PAL version, it's 50hz.
_________________
Please, call me Ginger :D

Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Visit poster's website XBL Gamertag: GingerBraFace PSN Name: GingerBraFace Wii Friend Code: 390546319559
Sixstringcal  
 




Joined: 17 May 2016
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is it possible to to a swap with the straw tape and tissue mod with a pal iso? Or would I have to get a pal copy to have it count if I went that way?

Also, is plumato's Europe and Australia iso on his drive a pal version or an NTSC version of the European and Australian one (which seems pointless).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: Sixstringcal
UndeadFil13QC  
 




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 3313
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a thing.

AbyssionQC, in the RGC Facebook group, wrote:
So I ended up spending A LOT of time testing stuff on PCSX2 and analysed the fuck out GH2's strum limit. What I did is run the game at 10% speed while keeping the emulator at a framerate of 60 and 100 (did several tests). At first I did standard strumming 20nps at 10% speed while running 60fps and recording 60fps but didn't trust the accuracy so I went 100fps and used an autokey to register 100 inputs per second and recorded the video at 100fps. Same results on both (16ms difference si negligible) after a dozen of tests with different settings. The 2 lowest results (who also happen to be the average result, hardly any variations) were 53.33ms and 55ms. Those 2 numbers which are basically the same thing represent the amount of time before the game will register a new strum. The strum limit is a set amount of time and not based on the FPS, as opposed to what most people thought (before you disagree, keep reading). It means that you can register one strum every ~54.16ms which gives a theoretical strum limit of 18.18~18.75nps (18.5nps if you use the average 54.16ms). Now, that seems like a very believable number but at the same time it's still too high to be true, why? Well, that's where the FPS comes into play. On NTSC, the game runs at 60FPS which, it means that the game theoretically draw one frame every 16.66ms. Using the the average as the most accurate result (54ms), it means that the game would allow a new input every ~3.24 frames which cannot be done, leading to one stream every 4 frames or 15nps. The limit is a lot closer to 16nps than 15nps though so why would the limit be 15? The only explanation to this is a variation in FPS, frames aren't drawn at a perfectly still timing, there's always variations, some frames can be drawn slower and some faster (bouncy FPS). Since it only takes a 5FPS drop to put the 3.24 frames number under 3 (55FPS is 2.97), it's very logical to believe that extra inputs would make their way just because of how close the numbers are to the actual limit. Now going for PAL, the amount of frames required to hit 54.16ms is only ~2.71 frames, meaning that you can register one strum every 3 frames. Unlike NTSC, the number is a lot closer to the higher number than the lower, meaning that slight FPS variations would hardly ever affect the limit since you would need 56FPS to lower the strum limit (3.02) and 36FPS to increase it (1.95). This give a strum limit of 16.6nps for PAL which is pretty much the number people originally estimated. There, GH2 strum limit explained as best as possible. Unfortunately it doesn't tell whether or not Trogdor NTSC is humanly possible lmao. It's pretty apparent that it can be done but there's a clear RNG factor to this.

_________________

ULTIMATE GOAL: FC I'm The One on GH: Van Halen Expert Guitar
Solo 2A FC Count: 39 (Best runs: many -1s, three outro chokes and two 100% overstrums!)

Side goals: GH Expert Vocals Full Series FC [4/8] | Rock Band Expert Bass Full Series FC [8/9]




47|64|30|70|41|86|49|48|85|46|93|42 (10|65|10)
Full Series Total: 701/702 (786/787)
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Send e-mail Wii Friend Code: 3977978993176180
UltraHeroABC5  
 




Joined: 25 Sep 2011
Posts: 1330
Location: Canada, Eh?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndeadFil13QC wrote:
Here's a thing.

AbyssionQC, in the RGC Facebook group, wrote:
So I ended up spending A LOT of time testing stuff on PCSX2 and analysed the fuck out GH2's strum limit. What I did is run the game at 10% speed while keeping the emulator at a framerate of 60 and 100 (did several tests). At first I did standard strumming 20nps at 10% speed while running 60fps and recording 60fps but didn't trust the accuracy so I went 100fps and used an autokey to register 100 inputs per second and recorded the video at 100fps. Same results on both (16ms difference si negligible) after a dozen of tests with different settings. The 2 lowest results (who also happen to be the average result, hardly any variations) were 53.33ms and 55ms. Those 2 numbers which are basically the same thing represent the amount of time before the game will register a new strum. The strum limit is a set amount of time and not based on the FPS, as opposed to what most people thought (before you disagree, keep reading). It means that you can register one strum every ~54.16ms which gives a theoretical strum limit of 18.18~18.75nps (18.5nps if you use the average 54.16ms). Now, that seems like a very believable number but at the same time it's still too high to be true, why? Well, that's where the FPS comes into play. On NTSC, the game runs at 60FPS which, it means that the game theoretically draw one frame every 16.66ms. Using the the average as the most accurate result (54ms), it means that the game would allow a new input every ~3.24 frames which cannot be done, leading to one stream every 4 frames or 15nps. The limit is a lot closer to 16nps than 15nps though so why would the limit be 15? The only explanation to this is a variation in FPS, frames aren't drawn at a perfectly still timing, there's always variations, some frames can be drawn slower and some faster (bouncy FPS). Since it only takes a 5FPS drop to put the 3.24 frames number under 3 (55FPS is 2.97), it's very logical to believe that extra inputs would make their way just because of how close the numbers are to the actual limit. Now going for PAL, the amount of frames required to hit 54.16ms is only ~2.71 frames, meaning that you can register one strum every 3 frames. Unlike NTSC, the number is a lot closer to the higher number than the lower, meaning that slight FPS variations would hardly ever affect the limit since you would need 56FPS to lower the strum limit (3.02) and 36FPS to increase it (1.95). This give a strum limit of 16.6nps for PAL which is pretty much the number people originally estimated. There, GH2 strum limit explained as best as possible. Unfortunately it doesn't tell whether or not Trogdor NTSC is humanly possible lmao. It's pretty apparent that it can be done but there's a clear RNG factor to this.


thank u
_________________
Current Goals (long-ish term)
Get 1 Billion Points on user stats board(s)
King Diamond wrote:
Quote:
I was born on a cemetery, under the sign of the moon!
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ScoreHero Forum Index -> Technique, Style, and Gameplay -> Guitar/Bass All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Copyright © 2006-2018 ScoreHero, LLC
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy


Powered by phpBB