Why I think these games eventually failed

[mninp]

Guitar Hero is a great concept. Ever since the first one we knew it was gonna be a hit. That being said, I have a few main reasons as to why I think this series lost so much steam so quickly.

1. Oversaturation: This one is the biggest, and we all know it. Though to be honest, DLC killed the series more than the individual games did. Remember in the GH1 and 2 days, we were so excited to find out what songs are going to be in the next game? We kept looking forward to playing "that one song" that we loved, hoping it was gonna be in the next game. Once DLC started happening, we got spoiled. Playing songs we loved wasn't special anymore because we had so many. Once GH5 came around, a new GH game was nothing more than an extended DLC pack. It's strange because Megadeth is my favorite band and I remember when GH1 came out I used to play Symphony of Destruction over and over again because I loved the band so much, and it wasn't even close to my favorite song by them. Now for Rock Band we have two full Megadeth albums and a bunch of other Megadeth songs able to be played across four instruments...yet somehow it doesn't feel half as great or special as when I used to play Symphony of Destruction and Hangar 18.

2. Minimal Changes to the Gameplay: Sure, they added other instruments and whatnot, but the gameplay itself remained unchanged. They kept the five button layout the entire time and therein lies the problem. Once you got good enough to be able to 5 star everything on Expert, you weren't really going to be challenged all that much...there wasn't much else to do. Remember when you played your first GH game and every difficulty was a struggle? Well you NEVER got that experience ever again. Once you got good at Expert in any GH game, every other GH game was that much easier to beat. Save for a few bonus songs and the last tier, you weren't going to see really any curves thrown at you, or anything you haven't seen before. Did GH5 teach you any new techniques that 1-4 didn't? That's kind of what I mean. The only option they had was to over chart the crap out of a lot of songs, which most of the time made them unbearable to play on a fun level. GH isn't like an RPG where every new game you start on level 1 and must learn the ropes again...once you're good at GH, you're always good. If they had added a 6th button, or changed some aspect of the gameplay to make it fresh and exciting for veterans, this series could have gone on much longer. GH Live had kind of the right idea, but the song list was garbage and not being able to use your pinky is a fail. If you ask me, every 3rd game should have changed the guitar layout, because after GH3 we had seen everything and every game was the same thing over and over again.


3. Harmonix Leaving & Rock Band: I love Rock Band, I really do. But Rock Band only helped to oversaturate this genre even more. Both Harmonix and Neversoft kept trying to one up each other and one up the last game instead of trying to focus on making each individual game great. They kept spitting out music games like it was coming out of a machine gun. Not to mention Neversoft took the "raw grittiness" of the early games that Harmonix had, and started making it very "hipster" oriented and the bonus songs suffered big time. Their games didn't have the same feel, MAYBE with the exception of GH3. Harmonix just "gets it" when it comes to rock and heavy metal. The tone, the attitude, the bonus songs, everything was just very faithful to the image of rock and what it was all about. Neversoft didn't get it...at all.

4. The Difficulty Eventually Capped: This kind of overlaps with my previous point, but yeah...once we hit TTFAF and TDWDTG we had seen everything. The songs weren't going to get harder, some changes had to be made. I also want to mention that Custom Songs really made an impact as well. People were able to make these crazy abominations that were near impossible to beat, which made the actual hard songs in the game look pale by comparison.

5. All the Songs Were Used Up: There really wasn't much that people still wanted to play. Not to mention both GH and RB reused so many songs over and over and over again (Ace of Spades anyone?). If the song was anything less than max difficulty, it was "too easy", and on that rare occasion you found that one song that's really hard that you love, it was only one song anyway. The enjoyment, the progression, the songs...everything had just reached its peak, and it reached it so fast, because people got good that fast and new songs in the form of new games and DLC were releasing that fast.

I believe all of these things contributed to the fall of this franchise. If they had just innovated a little instead of milking the franchise for the same thing, this series could still be fresh and exciting in 2017. Heck, all they need to do is to add ONE MORE DAMN BUTTON on the 6th fret and this is an instant buy for me, and I assume for most people. We want that challenge back, that freshness, that excitement.

I'm not sure if they would, but I think Harmonix should reboot the franchise and bring it back tot he basics. Give us a new guitar with a few more buttons (no "rows", just one button each fret), make even Easy mode something we haven't seen before, and build up to it. Make veterans feel the need to play every difficulty. Innovate.

[mninp]

Guitar Hero is a great concept. Ever since the first one we knew it was gonna be a hit. That being said, I have a few main reasons as to why I think this series lost so much steam so quickly.

1. Oversaturation: This one is the biggest, and we all know it. Though to be honest, DLC killed the series more than the individual games did. Remember in the GH1 and 2 days, we were so excited to find out what songs are going to be in the next game? We kept looking forward to playing "that one song" that we loved, hoping it was gonna be in the next game. Once DLC started happening, we got spoiled. Playing songs we loved wasn't special anymore because we had so many. Once GH5 came around, a new GH game was nothing more than an extended DLC pack. It's strange because Megadeth is my favorite band and I remember when GH1 came out I used to play Symphony of Destruction over and over again because I loved the band so much, and it wasn't even close to my favorite song by them. Now for Rock Band we have two full Megadeth albums and a bunch of other Megadeth songs able to be played across four instruments...yet somehow it doesn't feel half as great or special as when I used to play Symphony of Destruction and Hangar 18.

2. Minimal Changes to the Gameplay: Sure, they added other instruments and whatnot, but the gameplay itself remained unchanged. They kept the five button layout the entire time and therein lies the problem. Once you got good enough to be able to 5 star everything on Expert, you weren't really going to be challenged all that much...there wasn't much else to do. Remember when you played your first GH game and every difficulty was a struggle? Well you NEVER got that experience ever again. Once you got good at Expert in any GH game, every other GH game was that much easier to beat. Save for a few bonus songs and the last tier, you weren't going to see really any curves thrown at you, or anything you haven't seen before. Did GH5 teach you any new techniques that 1-4 didn't? That's kind of what I mean. The only option they had was to over chart the crap out of a lot of songs, which most of the time made them unbearable to play on a fun level. GH isn't like an RPG where every new game you start on level 1 and must learn the ropes again...once you're good at GH, you're always good. If they had added a 6th button, or changed some aspect of the gameplay to make it fresh and exciting for veterans, this series could have gone on much longer. GH Live had kind of the right idea, but the song list was garbage and not being able to use your pinky is a fail. If you ask me, every 3rd game should have changed the guitar layout, because after GH3 we had seen everything and every game was the same thing over and over again.


3. Harmonix Leaving & Rock Band: I love Rock Band, I really do. But Rock Band only helped to oversaturate this genre even more. Both Harmonix and Neversoft kept trying to one up each other and one up the last game instead of trying to focus on making each individual game great. They kept spitting out music games like it was coming out of a machine gun. Not to mention Neversoft took the "raw grittiness" of the early games that Harmonix had, and started making it very "hipster" oriented and the bonus songs suffered big time. Their games didn't have the same feel, MAYBE with the exception of GH3. Harmonix just "gets it" when it comes to rock and heavy metal. The tone, the attitude, the bonus songs, everything was just very faithful to the image of rock and what it was all about. Neversoft didn't get it...at all.

4. The Difficulty Eventually Capped: This kind of overlaps with my previous point, but yeah...once we hit TTFAF and TDWDTG we had seen everything. The songs weren't going to get harder, some changes had to be made. I also want to mention that Custom Songs really made an impact as well. People were able to make these crazy abominations that were near impossible to beat, which made the actual hard songs in the game look pale by comparison.

5. All the Songs Were Used Up: There really wasn't much that people still wanted to play. Not to mention both GH and RB reused so many songs over and over and over again (Ace of Spades anyone?). If the song was anything less than max difficulty, it was "too easy", and on that rare occasion you found that one song that's really hard that you love, it was only one song anyway. The enjoyment, the progression, the songs...everything had just reached its peak, and it reached it so fast, because people got good that fast and new songs in the form of new games and DLC were releasing that fast.

I believe all of these things contributed to the fall of this franchise. If they had just innovated a little instead of milking the franchise for the same thing, this series could still be fresh and exciting in 2017. Heck, all they need to do is to add ONE MORE DAMN BUTTON on the 6th fret and this is an instant buy for me, and I assume for most people. We want that challenge back, that freshness, that excitement.

I'm not sure if they would, but I think Harmonix should reboot the franchise and bring it back tot he basics. Give us a new guitar with a few more buttons (no "rows", just one button each fret), make even Easy mode something we haven't seen before, and build up to it. Make veterans feel the need to play every difficulty. Innovate.

[voidedalive2x]

1. I highly doubt anyone will argue #1. Still, I don't really feel like the games around GH5 were like extended DLC, although I won't deny that GH5 itself feels like it a bit. I admit my view of the DLC isn't the same because for a good deal of time DLC was completely out of my reach--I only managed to get online (and thus DLC) access in about 2013 or so, only just in time to use my refund to buy as much of the GH DLC as I could. It was and is a lot, don't get me wrong, and I sort of understand your view, but to me it was more like a treasure I finally was able to reach. I don't like every single DLC I've played so far (Blech to Roy Orbison), but in my view it pretty much always feels fresh.

2. While I agree in theory and in spirit, I can sort-of understand if they wished to keep it the same for the sake of newcomers, and not confusing them by having this extra doodad to distract them. You could reasonably argue that GH5 was definitely more catered for newcomers (except on Drums, probably), whereas WoR was built for veterans at a time when at least NS was leaving the series. The Pro instruments on RB3 was probably some of what you wanted, but mayhaps a bit too late. That being said, I do wish that something like a 6th fret was included, even if as an Expert+ for Guitar and Bass.

Out of curiosity, do you count the different drumsets as a meaningful change?

(although, except for some VH songs, I didn't overly mind any overcharting. Except 21CSM. Fuck that slider solo.)

4. Of course NS couldn't do that without pushing away casuals, or just keep them to the two or three songs that they could play and never venture beyond it. Would've been nice to have a sort of hardcore game that portrayed itself as having hard-ass songs the equal of TTFaF and TDWDTG (like More Dragonforce, for instance), and nothing less than that.

5. I really honestly think that this one is more in people's personal opinion than anything else you've mentioned so far. As far as on-dics vs. DLC, this is absolutely true, as there are many many songs in the RB DLC list that I would vastly prefer to be on-disc offerings to avoid doubling up (with very small exceptions for RB3 remasters of pre-RB3 songs, and even then I 'm not sold on those). But on the whole, perhaps in part because I spent a full year away from the game and don't have the same mastery on drums that I do on guitar, I still find a sense of progression as well as songs that may be trite on one instrument but amazing and fun (and difficult, too) on another that keeps it fresh and able to come back to.

I don't wish to make this sound like I'm trying to argue against you here, as I do agree with the majority of your reasons (although, I suppose you could say I'm arguing anyways, but w/e). I just find it an interesting and differing viewpoint from you considering that some of the things that we disagree on (DLC related, mostly) are things that I only got to after the main games had run its course as far as new releases go. Thus, while the sheer magnitude of RB's library is very overwhelming, I have yet to actually feel bored or run stale of it yet. Granted, I do assume you got into the DLC at around RB1/WT, so correct me if I'm wrong.

As for a reboot, I would honestly really like it if RB could be catered for a casual band experience, while HMX had a side series that was dedicated just for guitar and just for the hardest songs they could find while still being fairly charted, along with the fabled 6th button on the single string (or I suppose give the Live guitar 8 frets, possibly). Keep the casual stuff the same and add other stuff later, and use the side-series to bring new ideas that can be included in the casual part later with enough approval.
_________________

GH accomps: FFWF, DE, Battery HDrums FCs! HDrums 46/49!!
RB accomps: RB3 MDrums FGFC! RB3 MOMBFGFC!
Old Youtube, New Youtube | I do Twitch, now!

[voidedalive2x]

1. I highly doubt anyone will argue #1. Still, I don't really feel like the games around GH5 were like extended DLC, although I won't deny that GH5 itself feels like it a bit. I admit my view of the DLC isn't the same because for a good deal of time DLC was completely out of my reach--I only managed to get online (and thus DLC) access in about 2013 or so, only just in time to use my refund to buy as much of the GH DLC as I could. It was and is a lot, don't get me wrong, and I sort of understand your view, but to me it was more like a treasure I finally was able to reach. I don't like every single DLC I've played so far (Blech to Roy Orbison), but in my view it pretty much always feels fresh.

2. While I agree in theory and in spirit, I can sort-of understand if they wished to keep it the same for the sake of newcomers, and not confusing them by having this extra doodad to distract them. You could reasonably argue that GH5 was definitely more catered for newcomers (except on Drums, probably), whereas WoR was built for veterans at a time when at least NS was leaving the series. The Pro instruments on RB3 was probably some of what you wanted, but mayhaps a bit too late. That being said, I do wish that something like a 6th fret was included, even if as an Expert+ for Guitar and Bass.

Out of curiosity, do you count the different drumsets as a meaningful change?

(although, except for some VH songs, I didn't overly mind any overcharting. Except 21CSM. Fuck that slider solo.)

4. Of course NS couldn't do that without pushing away casuals, or just keep them to the two or three songs that they could play and never venture beyond it. Would've been nice to have a sort of hardcore game that portrayed itself as having hard-ass songs the equal of TTFaF and TDWDTG (like More Dragonforce, for instance), and nothing less than that.

5. I really honestly think that this one is more in people's personal opinion than anything else you've mentioned so far. As far as on-dics vs. DLC, this is absolutely true, as there are many many songs in the RB DLC list that I would vastly prefer to be on-disc offerings to avoid doubling up (with very small exceptions for RB3 remasters of pre-RB3 songs, and even then I 'm not sold on those). But on the whole, perhaps in part because I spent a full year away from the game and don't have the same mastery on drums that I do on guitar, I still find a sense of progression as well as songs that may be trite on one instrument but amazing and fun (and difficult, too) on another that keeps it fresh and able to come back to.

I don't wish to make this sound like I'm trying to argue against you here, as I do agree with the majority of your reasons (although, I suppose you could say I'm arguing anyways, but w/e). I just find it an interesting and differing viewpoint from you considering that some of the things that we disagree on (DLC related, mostly) are things that I only got to after the main games had run its course as far as new releases go. Thus, while the sheer magnitude of RB's library is very overwhelming, I have yet to actually feel bored or run stale of it yet. Granted, I do assume you got into the DLC at around RB1/WT, so correct me if I'm wrong.

As for a reboot, I would honestly really like it if RB could be catered for a casual band experience, while HMX had a side series that was dedicated just for guitar and just for the hardest songs they could find while still being fairly charted, along with the fabled 6th button on the single string (or I suppose give the Live guitar 8 frets, possibly). Keep the casual stuff the same and add other stuff later, and use the side-series to bring new ideas that can be included in the casual part later with enough approval.
_________________

GH accomps: FFWF, DE, Battery HDrums FCs! HDrums 46/49!!
RB accomps: RB3 MDrums FGFC! RB3 MOMBFGFC!
Old Youtube, New Youtube | I do Twitch, now!

[Tagrineth]

Adding another guitar button every X games would have to have been done only at generational jumps. Making a new game on the same console that required a new peripheral would NOT have helped sales, it would have GUTTED sales.

You critically overestimate the allure of the top end veteran players. 90% of the people I meet IRL who play or have played GH/RB never even touched Expert. Saying that the highest level of play got stale because everyone plateau'd and lost interest is super duper disingenuous. I don't believe this had anything at all to do with the games dying out.

The oversaturation issue is probably the biggest. Especially once Rock Band showed that you could just stay on one game and expand the setlist with DLC, releasing 5 Guitar Hero games in 2 years became absolutely absurd.

Especially the TIMING of it all.

I don't think a lot of people consider WHEN guitar hero 3 boomed, and WHEN the franchise fell off.

GH3 came out at the end of 2007. Drink that in for a moment.

The flood of GH games came out in 2008. The big recession. People had a lot less spending power and the media reminded everyone that spending money probably wasn't the wisest thing to do so a lot of casual buyers became a whole lot more picky about their purchases.

Also, one last thing I'd like to note. There's no way in hell "All the Songs Were Used Up" applies. There's a fuckin' gigantic amount of phenomenal music that hasn't appeared in a GH/RB game yet, and that includes a metric fuckton of great classic rock, not even the constant deluge of modern music that keeps getting released.
_________________

My goals:
Put an X in this box: []
*loves dragons*
stuff i've done, insanely out of date

[Tagrineth]

Adding another guitar button every X games would have to have been done only at generational jumps. Making a new game on the same console that required a new peripheral would NOT have helped sales, it would have GUTTED sales.

You critically overestimate the allure of the top end veteran players. 90% of the people I meet IRL who play or have played GH/RB never even touched Expert. Saying that the highest level of play got stale because everyone plateau'd and lost interest is super duper disingenuous. I don't believe this had anything at all to do with the games dying out.

The oversaturation issue is probably the biggest. Especially once Rock Band showed that you could just stay on one game and expand the setlist with DLC, releasing 5 Guitar Hero games in 2 years became absolutely absurd.

Especially the TIMING of it all.

I don't think a lot of people consider WHEN guitar hero 3 boomed, and WHEN the franchise fell off.

GH3 came out at the end of 2007. Drink that in for a moment.

The flood of GH games came out in 2008. The big recession. People had a lot less spending power and the media reminded everyone that spending money probably wasn't the wisest thing to do so a lot of casual buyers became a whole lot more picky about their purchases.

Also, one last thing I'd like to note. There's no way in hell "All the Songs Were Used Up" applies. There's a fuckin' gigantic amount of phenomenal music that hasn't appeared in a GH/RB game yet, and that includes a metric fuckton of great classic rock, not even the constant deluge of modern music that keeps getting released.
_________________

My goals:
Put an X in this box: []
*loves dragons*
stuff i've done, insanely out of date

[bushidox]

In my opinion in order of importance:
1) Oversaturation, especially in light of the points that Tagrinth makes.
2) Staleness of more of the same thing, the series never really changed, once 4 instruments were added, and many people were getting new gen systems at that point and wanted something "new".
3) The cost to keep up with the Jones' after a while. I mean having 12 games on the GH side and arguably 8 on the RB side made you feel like you had to have all the games. More games cost more money, your instruments broke down or you needed more for your friends, and you started to realize how much all that cost. $1000+ is not uncommon for a lot of us.
4) Many of you got your first GH/RB game while still a teenager, your priorities and tastes change radically at this time, and as such you move on to new things in life.

That being said, I still play RB with my friends, and many people on my boards play GH and RB on a weekly basis. The games still hold appeal to us, but for many the allure has gone away.

I guess I can best sum it up as, say you have a favorite food. Say that food is pizza. You can get pizza from your two favorite places, and you like a lot of particular topping combinations. Problem is, after a while, even the variety of toppings and two different choices of pizza places will get old if you try to eat it every single day. You really can have too much of a good thing. Taking a break has always made me realize how much I love the series, and how I wish I had bought an Ion kit way back when. Going through 5 drums kits was not cheap, lol.
_________________

The Unofficial Score Hero GH Guitar leaderboard for X/H/M/E: http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1638203#1638203
The Unofficial Score Hero RB Guitar leaderboard for X/H/M/E: http://rockband.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=703852#703852
The Unofficial Score Hero Bass GH leaderboard for X/H/M/E: http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107740
The Unofficial Score Hero Bass RB leaderboard for X/H/M/E: http://rockband.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=703842#703842
The Unofficial Cross Platform FGFC leaderboard for X/H/M/E: http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=108548

[bushidox]

In my opinion in order of importance:
1) Oversaturation, especially in light of the points that Tagrinth makes.
2) Staleness of more of the same thing, the series never really changed, once 4 instruments were added, and many people were getting new gen systems at that point and wanted something "new".
3) The cost to keep up with the Jones' after a while. I mean having 12 games on the GH side and arguably 8 on the RB side made you feel like you had to have all the games. More games cost more money, your instruments broke down or you needed more for your friends, and you started to realize how much all that cost. $1000+ is not uncommon for a lot of us.
4) Many of you got your first GH/RB game while still a teenager, your priorities and tastes change radically at this time, and as such you move on to new things in life.

That being said, I still play RB with my friends, and many people on my boards play GH and RB on a weekly basis. The games still hold appeal to us, but for many the allure has gone away.

I guess I can best sum it up as, say you have a favorite food. Say that food is pizza. You can get pizza from your two favorite places, and you like a lot of particular topping combinations. Problem is, after a while, even the variety of toppings and two different choices of pizza places will get old if you try to eat it every single day. You really can have too much of a good thing. Taking a break has always made me realize how much I love the series, and how I wish I had bought an Ion kit way back when. Going through 5 drums kits was not cheap, lol.
_________________

The Unofficial Score Hero GH Guitar leaderboard for X/H/M/E: http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1638203#1638203
The Unofficial Score Hero RB Guitar leaderboard for X/H/M/E: http://rockband.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=703852#703852
The Unofficial Score Hero Bass GH leaderboard for X/H/M/E: http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=107740
The Unofficial Score Hero Bass RB leaderboard for X/H/M/E: http://rockband.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=703842#703842
The Unofficial Cross Platform FGFC leaderboard for X/H/M/E: http://www.scorehero.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=108548