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Community vs Trogdor: Progress thread
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tma  
 




Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1414
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Work in progress update.

Building the new relay board.

Top of board, most components have been placed except for some manual switches:

http://postimg.com/image/90000/bot_wip_20121031-1-89190.jpg

Bottom. Only the relay on the bottom right (just left of the smaller board) has been fully soldered together so far. Bonus: in the background you can see the old design. The smaller board on the right is an Arduino clone.

http://postimg.com/image/90000/bot_wip_20121031-2-89191.jpg

If there's anything else you'd like to see pictures of, e.g. the guts of a 360 controller that's been wired up or the GH3 controller board, let me know and I'll post them up.
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UndeadFil13QC  
 




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 3310
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok guys, I've been doing some attempts at the solo last week and came pretty close to something. I've been able to hit everything until the orange streak by trying to use the blue hammer-on super-early. It looks like when you hit it early (without strumming it) you can begin strumming the following note earlier without the having the strum register for the HOPO. I don't know if this is true, I'll have to test it out a bit. I've never been able to test it with the orange stream because I kept hitting the orange HOPO too late and breaking combo. I still have no idea whether it is actually possible to hit the entire orange streak though.

EDIT: Just got a -1 near the end of the orange streak. I think I actually strummed the orange HOPO...

EDIT 2: I forgot to mention the reason why I think this works. I'm pretty sure this is the method that helped me FC Ballroom Blitz, because the way I'm doing it is fretting as early as possible and strum on-tempo. Since the HOPOs have already been hit and long forgotten when I strum, the strum registers for the note that needs to be strummed rather than the HOPO. Does that make sense?
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Tagrineth  
 




Joined: 25 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talk about doing ultra-mega-hardmode.

Keep it up though.
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JustZackster  
 




Joined: 24 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingInferno93 told me Trodgor should definitely be possible on NTSC. He's hit every part of the strumming separately. His best is a -1 and he got that in the oranges. But he said he's hit all the oranges once in a run where he missed before. So I assume that must mean it's possible, if done very very carefully
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UndeadFil13QC  
 




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustZackster wrote:
KingInferno93 told me Trodgor should definitely be possible on NTSC. He's hit every part of the strumming separately. His best is a -1 and he got that in the oranges. But he said he's hit all the oranges once in a run where he missed before. So I assume that must mean it's possible, if done very very carefully


I believe the best documented Trogdor run on NTSC was KramRal's -1, and according to his note streak it was right in the middle of the orange streak. I also got a few -1s in practice, in the very same spot. I'd love to see a video where the entire orange streak is hit, though that doesn't prove anything because we still wouldn't know if the orange sustain right after is possible to hit in the same run. As far as I'm concerned, I'm pretty confident that the FC is actually possible, but very unlikely, even assuming that the method I mentioned in my previous post actually works.
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ULTIMATE GOAL: FC I'm The One on GH: Van Halen Expert Guitar
Solo 2A FC Count: 39 (Best runs: many -1s, three outro chokes and two 100% overstrums!)

Side goals: GH Expert Vocals Full Series FC [4/8] | Rock Band Expert Bass Full Series FC [8/9]




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LlamaYip  
 




Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustZackster wrote:
KingInferno93 told me Trodgor should definitely be possible on NTSC. He's hit every part of the strumming separately. His best is a -1 and he got that in the oranges. But he said he's hit all the oranges once in a run where he missed before. So I assume that must mean it's possible, if done very very carefully

I don't think that being able to hit each section of the strumming section is an indication that it's possible with NTSC. I mean, the real challenge comes in hitting it all consecutively, not in pieces, and the closer we were to get to the full notestreak, the more likely it is possible; but if the note being missed is somewhere like at the beginning of the Orange streak, that doesn't really seem like it's getting much closer to an FC than what the community has already had for years now.

Generally, I'm a huge skeptic. I do not think the FC is possible on NTSC. I haven't done much personal research but the research that HAS been done points to it being just barely impossible. I mean, I don't know. It could be possible. In my view, if it IS possible, the amount of precision required to actually hit is is not within human capability so it won't be done.

But I beg someone to prove me wrong.
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UndeadFil13QC  
 




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: Prague, Czech Republic

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might take the PS2 out of its box again tonight to run some tests and attempt to prove that my early HOPO method works and can be useful. I'll try it first on songs like Misirlou and Six because they are much slower and testable than Trogdor, and if it really works I'll try to apply it to the infamous Trogdor. It still takes a lot of accuracy to do that so I'm not sure if I'll get any conclusive results...
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ULTIMATE GOAL: FC I'm The One on GH: Van Halen Expert Guitar
Solo 2A FC Count: 39 (Best runs: many -1s, three outro chokes and two 100% overstrums!)

Side goals: GH Expert Vocals Full Series FC [4/8] | Rock Band Expert Bass Full Series FC [8/9]




47|64|30|70|41|86|49|48|85|46|93|42 (10|65|10)
Full Series Total: 701/702 (786/787)
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JustZackster  
 




Joined: 24 Apr 2011
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LlamaYip wrote:
JustZackster wrote:
KingInferno93 told me Trodgor should definitely be possible on NTSC. He's hit every part of the strumming separately. His best is a -1 and he got that in the oranges. But he said he's hit all the oranges once in a run where he missed before. So I assume that must mean it's possible, if done very very carefully

I don't think that being able to hit each section of the strumming section is an indication that it's possible with NTSC. I mean, the real challenge comes in hitting it all consecutively, not in pieces, and the closer we were to get to the full notestreak, the more likely it is possible; but if the note being missed is somewhere like at the beginning of the Orange streak, that doesn't really seem like it's getting much closer to an FC than what the community has already had for years now.

Generally, I'm a huge skeptic. I do not think the FC is possible on NTSC. I haven't done much personal research but the research that HAS been done points to it being just barely impossible. I mean, I don't know. It could be possible. In my view, if it IS possible, the amount of precision required to actually hit is is not within human capability so it won't be done.

But I beg someone to prove me wrong.


Well yeah obviously hitting it all in pieces doesn't mean it's FCable for that fact. But it does retract what others are saying about just the orange streak possibly being impossible to hit. But unless we can get video proof of the entire orange streak being hit, we won't know if it's hittable. I was just going on KingInferno's word, that is iirc that he said he has hit it. It would still be unlikely with as many attempts as many top players have had that it's possible to hit all the strumming together.
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Tagrineth  
 




Joined: 25 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustZackster wrote:
Well yeah obviously hitting it all in pieces doesn't mean it's FCable for that fact. But it does retract what others are saying about just the orange streak possibly being impossible to hit. But unless we can get video proof of the entire orange streak being hit, we won't know if it's hittable. I was just going on KingInferno's word, that is iirc that he said he has hit it. It would still be unlikely with as many attempts as many top players have had that it's possible to hit all the strumming together.


I don't think anyone has said that the oranges on their own are impossible, just that the're (potentially) impossible to hit after comboing the yellows and blues, too.
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f4phantom2500  
 




Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tagrineth wrote:
JustZackster wrote:
Well yeah obviously hitting it all in pieces doesn't mean it's FCable for that fact. But it does retract what others are saying about just the orange streak possibly being impossible to hit. But unless we can get video proof of the entire orange streak being hit, we won't know if it's hittable. I was just going on KingInferno's word, that is iirc that he said he has hit it. It would still be unlikely with as many attempts as many top players have had that it's possible to hit all the strumming together.


I don't think anyone has said that the oranges on their own are impossible, just that the're (potentially) impossible to hit after comboing the yellows and blues, too.


^. really, what's the point? i mean, who outside of this forum cares if it's actually possible on NTSC? for that matter, how many of the people that still frequent this forum care? 10, 20 tops? seriously, it's literally way easier to just buy swapmagic and find a setup that works and do it in pal. like, even if you have no money, it's easier to get a job *and* get paid $30, then buy swapmagic and go through all the torture of fc'ing trogdor in pal (which, of course, is still hard as shit) than it would be to do it in NTSC, and that's assuming it's even possible in the first place.
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tma  
 




Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1414
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

f4phantom2500 wrote:
Tagrineth wrote:
JustZackster wrote:
Well yeah obviously hitting it all in pieces doesn't mean it's FCable for that fact. But it does retract what others are saying about just the orange streak possibly being impossible to hit. But unless we can get video proof of the entire orange streak being hit, we won't know if it's hittable. I was just going on KingInferno's word, that is iirc that he said he has hit it. It would still be unlikely with as many attempts as many top players have had that it's possible to hit all the strumming together.


I don't think anyone has said that the oranges on their own are impossible, just that the're (potentially) impossible to hit after comboing the yellows and blues, too.


^. really, what's the point? i mean, who outside of this forum cares if it's actually possible on NTSC? for that matter, how many of the people that still frequent this forum care? 10, 20 tops? seriously, it's literally way easier to just buy swapmagic and find a setup that works and do it in pal. like, even if you have no money, it's easier to get a job *and* get paid $30, then buy swapmagic and go through all the torture of fc'ing trogdor in pal (which, of course, is still hard as shit) than it would be to do it in NTSC, and that's assuming it's even possible in the first place.


Why do people climb Mount Everest? ;)

It's been a while but I've recently started looking at my bot again. I've actually pulled my finger out and have (partially) finished my new circuit board, to the point where it's capable of firing all 5 buttons and up and down strum. This means I can start testing my code again.

While I was building it and testing it this time around I noted that downstrumming while pressing RG, RY, or GY resulted in the missing fret of those three being pressed triggered rather than strum (e.g. if RG is pressed and downstrum is triggered, Y would be fretted instead of downstrum). I'm wondering if this might have been causing some of the problems I was encountering in my previous attempts. I can't actually explain why it's happening because I've triple checked the wiring and it's all fine - I can only assume that the guitar controller itself is possibly faulty (or I induced a fault by damaging it). Up strum works perfectly though, so I'll program it to just use up strums for the time being until (if) I get another controller.

Note this is all on the Xbox 360 version at this stage, I haven't yet gutted my PS2 guitar (which I bought specifically for this purpose, along with my PS2!).
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tma  
 




Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1414
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I did some further tests the other day. My test song is The Trooper on Expert, mainly as it's one I could never 5-star myself and it's also a fast song, which in theory means that anything out with the timing should show up fairly quickly.

Well, the bot can 5-star the song, but I can't get a 100% run. I did a fair bit of playing around with the timing, and then I coded in a calibration routine (of sorts), and, well ... problems.

I think that GH2's music/note chart engine works on a variable timer. By that I mean that it's given slightly less priority than other parts of the game, and so the timing can vary from playthrough to playthrough. This won't matter so much to a human being because they will follow the timing by ear/eye, but for the bot, which is doing a precision playback of the game files, this breaks.

What this means in practice is that I'm fairly convinced I'm not going to be able to get a 100% run without having some way to feed back info from the game for timing. Other bots I've seen use a camera and real-time screen capture to achieve this, but this isn't something I've ever played with (and there seems to be a distinct lack of libraries for OSX+Perl), so I'm not sure if I'll go that route. Another option might be feeding into some kind of debug output from the console, but I think this will only be an option on PS2, and the debug output might not even be active in GH.

The brief testing I did with GH3 (to pass TtFaF) actually indicated that it's more accurate to the timing. So I might be able to get some 100% runs using the existing build.
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Tagrineth  
 




Joined: 25 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That actually makes a lot of sense. GH/GH2 probably cut a lot of corners in their code. Harmonix isn't exactly known to be great at the programming side of games... whereas Neversoft is.
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LocalH  
 




Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tma wrote:
I think that GH2's music/note chart engine works on a variable timer. By that I mean that it's given slightly less priority than other parts of the game, and so the timing can vary from playthrough to playthrough. This won't matter so much to a human being because they will follow the timing by ear/eye, but for the bot, which is doing a precision playback of the game files, this breaks.

That's interesting, as I seem to get the opposite impression from playing around with the 31-song demo, as well as the retail game's autoplayer. In the 31-song demo, I was recently playing on the Stonehenge venue, and noticed that the game would severely drop frames depending on the camera angle, yet not once did I miss any notes due to that as opposed to my lack of skill. Also, on a custom disc I have, there's a chart with over 5000 notes that causes the game to nearly lock up at slow track speeds, such that at 0.25 with hyperspeed on, the screen updates about twice a second, yet the autoplayer still hits every single note.
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Tagrineth  
 




Joined: 25 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LocalH wrote:
tma wrote:
I think that GH2's music/note chart engine works on a variable timer. By that I mean that it's given slightly less priority than other parts of the game, and so the timing can vary from playthrough to playthrough. This won't matter so much to a human being because they will follow the timing by ear/eye, but for the bot, which is doing a precision playback of the game files, this breaks.

That's interesting, as I seem to get the opposite impression from playing around with the 31-song demo, as well as the retail game's autoplayer. In the 31-song demo, I was recently playing on the Stonehenge venue, and noticed that the game would severely drop frames depending on the camera angle, yet not once did I miss any notes due to that as opposed to my lack of skill. Also, on a custom disc I have, there's a chart with over 5000 notes that causes the game to nearly lock up at slow track speeds, such that at 0.25 with hyperspeed on, the screen updates about twice a second, yet the autoplayer still hits every single note.


I don't think he was so much talking about the timer being attached to the frame rate as the timer not always starting on the same frame.
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