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Guitar Hero Speedrunning
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Davers  





Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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Location: In a van down by the river

PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:11 pm    Post subject: Guitar Hero Speedrunning Reply with quote

In lieu of recent talk about speedrunning a GH game, some of us thought that rules should definitely be implemented like any speedrun of a game. Suggestions are definitely welcomed. I will list possible rules that were discussed last night in our chat.

1. Game must start on a new file (games like GHA need to be started with either all other bands deleted or on a new memory card due to the fact that bonus songs are carried over to new saves).

1.2 Speedrun officially starts on the menu screen when the player is ready to start the run. He must have all songs locked and no previous band to start with. A new band must be formed.

2. In order to have a true speedrun of a GH game, you MUST full combo every song. This includes all bonus songs but not necessarily secret songs (GH1). 100% does not conclude a speedrun.

2.1 Songs that are glitched, but still FCable (Hard chart of Master of Puppets) are not exempt from Speedruns.

2.2 Songs that are glitched and unFCable (Hard chart of All Nightmare Long GH3 DLC), are exempt from FCs assuming you hit everything else but the glitched note.

3. FCing songs in any order is acceptable. This leaves the option to do the hardest songs first/last.

4. NO MODS. I know GH3PC enables mods to skip through loading screens quicker and things like that which puts console users at a disadvantage. Actually, I think GHPC games should be ineligible for speedrunning due to the insane speed at which everything loads but we need a mutual agreement from people on this.

5. In cases of GH2 (and GH2 only), Swap Magic is allowed for Trogdor but no other song like Six, Misirlou, or Beast and the Harlot. The time it takes to use Swap Magic should be included in the total time of the speedrun (clock keeps running, so perhaps it should be done last).

6. The honor system goes out the window. There must be video evidence or streams with witnesses for all speedrunning records. Just because you are a respected member of the GH community does not mean your word is all we need.

7. No in-game cheats. The only "cheat" that is acceptable is hyperspeed.


I'm sure there are other rules that need to be implemented. This is just a starter. Those that were in chat last night, I would love if you think of anything else that I can either add or take away. Also, maybe speedrun categories should be made? Certain criteria such as maybe all 7* in a game (pre-GHWT), DLC included, career mode only, things like that.
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voidedalive2x  





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the instance that someone wanted to speedrun a FSFC or 211/211 run (I would imagine on Medium or hard as easy would probably be too boring and Expert has only been done by three people and on the cusp for one), would the timer still run during the disc change or would it pause?
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Davers  





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

voidedalive2x wrote:
In the instance that someone wanted to speedrun a FSFC or 211/211 run (I would imagine on Medium or hard as easy would probably be too boring and Expert has only been done by three people and on the cusp for one), would the timer still run during the disc change or would it pause?

That's a good question. I would assume, much like Swap Magic, the timer would still run. Being that it doesn't take long to switch out a disc, I think that's the least of people's worries in a GH speedrun. Most people are going to be more focused on actually FCing the hard songs in as few tries as possible because that's what's going to take up all the time in the long run.

A 211/211 would be an impressive speedrun on any difficulty though. Expert would be insane, Hard would still be crazy but fun, Medium and Easy would probably be somewhat boring unless those are levels you play at and compete.
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elScarecrow  





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i feel like doing a speedrun of a game that is inherently time-based is kind of a silly idea. it takes something like 12 hours to play straight through GH6's setlist. absolute minimum.

maybe count "time" as number of misses/restarts - FCing an entire game straight through would be a 0, 1 restart a 1, etc.
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FingerQuick  





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Guitar Hero Speedrunning Reply with quote

Davers wrote:
1.2 Speedrun officially starts on the menu screen when the player is ready to start the run. He must have all songs locked and no previous band to start with. A new band must be formed.


For GHA I made the band and then started the timer when I picked the difficulty (for either career/quickplay). The difference is very minor but I think it should at least be after making the band name.

Davers wrote:
2. In order to have a true speedrun of a GH game, you MUST full combo every song. This includes all bonus songs but not necessarily secret songs (GH1). 100% does not conclude a speedrun.


Sounds good, variations of the speedrun could include things you listed later on like FG5*, FCing xx/xy songs, etc.

Davers wrote:
2.1 Songs that are glitched, but still FCable (Hard chart of Master of Puppets) are not exempt from Speedruns.


Sounds good.

Davers wrote:
2.2 Songs that are glitched and unFCable (Hard chart of All Nightmare Long GH3 DLC), are exempt from FCs assuming you hit everything else but the glitched note.


Sounds good, but thankfully I don't think there are any of those problems with on disc songs. I could be wrong though.

Davers wrote:
3. FCing songs in any order is acceptable. This leaves the option to do the hardest songs first/last.


Sounds good. This is especially worth noting for quickplay when you have all the songs unlocked from the start. However, during career when you have to play through to unlock the later tiers (Train Kept a Rollin for GHA) would be obviously required and the bonus songs I think can be bought whenever.

Davers wrote:
4. NO MODS. I know GH3PC enables mods to skip through loading screens quicker and things like that which puts console users at a disadvantage. Actually, I think GHPC games should be ineligible for speedrunning due to the insane speed at which everything loads but we need a mutual agreement from people on this.


I thought about this before and I think they would have to be allowed, at least without the mods because consoles have no way of getting those either. The loading times might be faster but thats the pros of doing the runs on PC I suppose, the cons being frame drops and lagging I guess. For example, I'm sure the 360 load times are significantly faster than PS2 but they're both console so it works.

Davers wrote:
5. In cases of GH2 (and GH2 only), Swap Magic is allowed for Trogdor but no other song like Six, Misirlou, or Beast and the Harlot. The time it takes to use Swap Magic should be included in the total time of the speedrun (clock keeps running, so perhaps it should be done last).


GH2 and the use of swap magic I'm going to steer away from because I don't plan on ever speedrun FGFCing GH2, but if anyone else would want to chime in on their thoughts that would be cool.

Davers wrote:
6. The honor system goes out the window. There must be video evidence or streams with witnesses for all speedrunning records. Just because you are a respected member of the GH community does not mean your word is all we need.


RIP the honor system 2005-2014. You were a great pal.

Davers wrote:
7. No in-game cheats. The only "cheat" that is acceptable is hyperspeed.


Self explanatory.

Davers wrote:
I'm sure there are other rules that need to be implemented. This is just a starter. Those that were in chat last night, I would love if you think of anything else that I can either add or take away. Also, maybe speedrun categories should be made? Certain criteria such as maybe all 7* in a game (pre-GHWT), DLC included, career mode only, things like that.


I think Career/Quickplay should definitely be categories as well as each of the difficulties for anyone that wants to run on their preferred difficulty. Even though the time difference between a perfect Career FGFC and a perfect Quickplay FGFC would probably be smaller than the length of a song it would allow players to play songs in any order they want to (quickplay). Like I mentioned earlier there could definitely be variations for fun or races if people wanted to race for fun. Those criteria could be joke categories/race categories/for fun/etc. I just dont think they should be actual categories. Kinda like SLASO or pacifist runs for Halo. All for fun.

Also thanks for making this post Davers, I know that DarklyinDarkness was looking into getting a copy of GHA so we could race it every now and then and I think Jleggy mentioned he might be interested. And then the thing with Kev wanting to completely obliterate GH1 lmao. But yeah if anyone else is interested in speedrun FGFCing a GH game, It'd be really cool to have more people partake.
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Davers  





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elScarecrow wrote:
i feel like doing a speedrun of a game that is inherently time-based is kind of a silly idea. it takes something like 12 hours to play straight through GH6's setlist. absolute minimum.

maybe count "time" as number of misses/restarts - FCing an entire game straight through would be a 0, 1 restart a 1, etc.


So basically, it's a speedrun in attempt numbers. For example, it took elscarecrow 84 tries total to FC all songs on GH1. That's not too bad of an idea either really. Maybe we should add that category.

And it's crazy for sure. It was just brought up last night during a stream that rules probably need to be made because there are people that have tried for them along with some that want to try. I know ace5993 did one on GH1 Expert and got it done in 8.5 hours. Eddaket did one on GH80s and it took him like 4.25 hours. Fingerquick did GHA (not sure what his time was) and Spunky has done GH3 career mode but not FCing the songs (which, no offense to him, is just silly).

It all boils down to how quickly one can FC the hardest songs. If you can get those in one go (lolol) then you have yourself a speedrun record that no one is going to break. I would assume most speedruns are probably only going to be done on GH1-GHA and maybe GHM (FingerQuick mentioned this one). GH5/6/SH would just take too long. And really GHSH wouldn't be too bad if someone was consistent at TTFAF.
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Davers  





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something else I meant to mention, what about the GH3 quickplay exclusive songs? I assume those would not be needed for a career speedrun and obviously needed for a Quickplay one. However, anyone that wants to do the entirety of GH3 needs to remember that if they start in career, eventually they would have to go into Quickplay to finish these songs. Remember Quickplay songs can only be unlocked by unlocking them first in Career.
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voidedalive2x  





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer FQ's question about un-FC-able on-disc songs, there are none. The only two I know of are DLC (the aforementioned ANL and The Catalyst on MBass).

regarding Swap Magic, why would it only be for Trogdor?

And FQ, I think it's perfectly fair for there to have to be at least 1-2 people to ensure you're not just fudging your results. Granted, there should be no one stupid enough to try and post a time that's shorter than the sum of all the song lengths in the game (going from the first beat marker to the time the game destroys/burns/smites the fretboard), to name an extreme, but still.

Davers wrote:
It all boils down to how quickly one can FC the hardest songs. If you can get those in one go (lolol) then you have yourself a speedrun record that no one is going to break. I would assume most speedruns are probably only going to be done on GH1-GHA and maybe GHM (FingerQuick mentioned this one). GH5/6/SH would just take too long. And really GHSH wouldn't be too bad if someone was consistent at TTFAF.

I understand GH5, WoR, and WT due to the sheer quantity of songs on each disc (though I don't see why they can't happen because there IS the Endless Setlist on the RB side, which is essentially the same thing), but I really don't see why SH would be a problem if GH3 isn't considering that GH3 has more songs AND TTFAF (and arguably the harder version of it, depending on who you ask).

Davers wrote:
Something else I meant to mention, what about the GH3 quickplay exclusive songs? I assume those would not be needed for a career speedrun and obviously needed for a Quickplay one. However, anyone that wants to do the entirety of GH3 needs to remember that if they start in career, eventually they would have to go into Quickplay to finish these songs. Remember Quickplay songs can only be unlocked by unlocking them first in Career.

Does GH3 operate in the same way as GHA (in that bonus songs carry over from band to band)? I've never really looked into it, but I don't think it's the case. In that regard, I think that either you'd have to play in Co-op mode for the speedrun, or allow for co-op mode to be completed to unlock those 6 beforehand, or simply make a GH3 FGFC be 64/64 instead of 70/70. OR have a completely different console set up with the exclusives that you switch over to when you're ready to do the exclusives.
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GH accomps: GHMMDrums FGFC, MOMBFGFC
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Jleggy12  





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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome, this looks really cool. As Scarecrow said, it is a slightly strange concept for a speed run as it is a time based game, but people run Yu-Gi-Oh Forbidden Memories all the time, which I've never understood, since the entire game is RNG based. This is a very elite form of speed running which I think may appeal to the wider community. The only issue I see is that really the only game that is feasible for anyone other than K3v is GHA, or GH5 if you have all the time. I see the main categories for the start being mainly HFGFCs, with GHA XFGFC an exception. Maybe another cool one would be a category that was based on career score, especially for GH3. This would also require efficient pathing knowledge, which adds another dynamic.

Scarecrow's way of measuring is interesting, I for one like seeing the time, but I think it would cool if that count was kept as well. Maybe with games like GHWoR it would be worth having a semi-serious 'how many FCs can you get in 3 hours' category or similar, if people don't want to spend the time going for FGFCs. I'm just spewing down everything I can think of right now, but basically I like the idea a lot. I gotta get practicing GHA
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Davers  





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We kind of figured there would be a variety of categories for the speedrunning. I mean, we have to make it fun. That's what it's all about Fingerquick mentioned in chat the other night that most people would probably do Hard since that's way more doable for speedrunning. So, yeah, if people do decide this is something they want to do, I assume it will be between Easy-Hard. Expert would more likely be 5* and other smaller accomplishments.

I like the idea of "amount of FCs in X amount of hours". I would assume perhaps this would be used for a sitting with multiple games. Of course, switching out discs would take away from your limited time. GH5 would be ideal for this type of challenge.

@FQ: As for PC use, fair enough. You are right that the newer consoles still load faster than the PS2 (and I think the Wii). Maybe saying what console the speedrun was done on would be an honorable mention.

@Void: The Swap Magic thing is definitely debatable. I'm up for that and using it for multiple songs. I guess if you were going to go for a GH2 speedrun, it wouldn't really matter because all speedrunners would be either on PAL or have Swap Magic, therefore not making it any less advantagable for other competitors. I just think a general consensus is that Swap Magic should only be used on Trogdor. Maybe more people use it on the other songs too and I just don't realize :P

And I don't know if GH3 or any other game has bonus songs that transfer over. I didn't even realize that GHA did until last night when FingerQuick mentioned it. That's something that probably needs to be looked into.
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newuser1234  





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

how can you record that long? i think my video camera maxes out at like 2 hours
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Davers  





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

newuser1234 wrote:
how can you record that long? i think my video camera maxes out at like 2 hours

High quality/crappy webcam or capture card. Or if your camera can somehow record while still plugged in and send feed to your computer. I don't know. lol Capture card seems the best way to go. Otherwise, streamers via twitch will have it recorded during their cast automatically. Quality just depends on the webcam being used.
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voidedalive2x  





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'd imagine it'd be best to use a built-in webcam and capture via a stream.

Incidentally, isn't 80s the only GH game you can speedrun in less than 2 hours (assuming all but BB take only 1 try to FC)?
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LocalH  





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO, putting too manu rules makes the whole thing pointless. For example, clock should stop during all non-gameplay activities. Counting non-gameplay time encourages stupid crap like naming the band "A" to save a few seconds of input. It also gives different consoles an advantage on the same songs, which is completely unfair. It would also disqualify PS2 HDD users even when using 100% unmodified disc images, and in many cases PS2 loads slower than other consoles. As well, it would create a disconnect between 360 users running from DVD, and 360 users running from HDD. It could be argued that in the PS2 case, HDD loading is unofficial and thus untrustable in the context of these "speedruns" (which I would disagree with because the game code and data being loaded is 100% idtneical to the unmodded retail disc), the 360 HDD loading support is official and thus can't be given the same level of scrutiny.

What's the real point of speedrunning a GH game, anyway? The songs are fixed length, so the only time differentiator is menu flow and other non-gamepay elements. The only time the clock should be on outside of gameplay is if the user takes a break, and that's really unprovable in any sense of the word, a competent individual could easily fake an unedited session while stopping recording, whether it's video capture or offscreen camera showing hands, without saying "you must keep your hands in frame the whole time" which would disallow stretching, etc during loading times. To me, the more important thing to be doing would be to document the FGFC session in order to compute a total score, and then compete based on the same standards SH has enjoyed for almost a decade, just based on full-game runs instead of individual songs.

I donk't know, this is just an opinion. Take it for what you will.
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Mr.Scientist  





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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davers wrote:
@FQ: Maybe saying what console the speedrun was done on would be an honorable mention.

Something like this

Davers wrote:
5. In cases of GH2 (and GH2 only), Swap Magic is allowed for Trogdor but no other song like Six, Misirlou, or Beast and the Harlot. The time it takes to use Swap Magic should be included in the total time of the speedrun (clock keeps running, so perhaps it should be done last).

I'm not sure I agree with that rule. Swap Magic is basically playing on PAL. If it's the faster version (aka if people can FC songs with more ease on it) then it could/should be used. It's like setting your Wii U in Spanish because text is faster in Wind Waker HD, or playing Train on a PAL N64 for Goldeneye 64 because the locks are less strict. Serious runners would play all of GH2 on Swap Magic to avoid having to increase their time due to game swapping or whatever you want to call that. (NTSC runners, PAL runners are already on... PAL :P)


Fingerquick wrote:
Davers wrote:
6. The honor system goes out the window. There must be video evidence or streams with witnesses for all speedrunning records. Just because you are a respected member of the GH community does not mean your word is all we need.


RIP the honor system 2005-2014. You were a great pal.

RIP in piece.

Now about the New Career no pre-saved file yada yada, it might actually be more complex than it seems. As Davers already mentionned, GH3 has the COOP bonus songs, which wouldn't be unlocked at all if you started from scratch, requiring you to play through COOP to get them (?) wasting a shit ton of time. Then there's also the credits songs (GH3 TTFAF, GHA Kings and Queens, GHWT Pull Me Under) which don't show any stats screen, so they would basically be unavoidable (and long) time losses (Because of no actual FC proof. Do those songs even show multiplier?). Add to that seeing your paycheck after every song (GH1-80s, not too sure how it would affect WT onwards right now, can't remember :P), having to buy songs off the store, etc. That's all annoying/boring time that adds to the counter. Since a run of any GH game is many hours long, it would be great to avoid such "useless" time losses.

Thing is, it would then have to be a case by case thing for each game. In the earlier games, you could do Quickplay, and go tier by tier. (Full Clear tier 1, then tier 2, then ...., then bonus songs) This would give access to GH3 QP exclusives, and also prevent people from doing something like grinding/reseting over Ballroom Blitz until they get it, then sweep the game and GG community.

Then, for later games, it could still be quickplay, and something could be worked out with a certain type of sorting (guitar difficulty) or (???).

Edit: English is hard.
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