ScoreHero
Home | Forum | Wiki
Inbox [ Login ]Inbox [ Login ]
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist
ProfileProfile Log inLog in
GH3 activation length

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ScoreHero Forum Index -> Technique, Style, and Gameplay -> Guitar/Bass
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ThunderShade  
 




Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:05 pm    Post subject: GH3 activation length Reply with quote

Everyone knows that a half bar of SP gives you an activation of length exactly 4 measures ... except that's not completely true. It seems that from GH3 onwards, time signature changes can screw with this. The most dramatic example is in The Judas Kiss: to my knowledge nobody has got that C2 activation even though it should be very easy. Another well-known example is the first act of Assassin. Does anybody know anything about this?
_________________


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: ThunderShade15
UltraHeroABC5  
 




Joined: 25 Sep 2011
Posts: 1330
Location: Canada, Eh?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

about Assassin, the first act changes time signatures, it goes from 4/4 to 6/4 in M. 29. If that's what your asking.

The 4 measures of SP thing only goes for songs in 4/4 (or if the act is completely in 4/4, if you know what I mean). If the song is in something like 2/4, it's shorter I think.
_________________
Current Goals (long-ish term)
Get 1 Billion Points on user stats board(s)
King Diamond wrote:
Quote:
I was born on a cemetery, under the sign of the moon!
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message
ThunderShade  
 




Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, my point is that Assassin is an example of what I'm talking about: the act comes up short. The Judas Kiss goes from 4/4 to 10/4 and the act is longer, though, so it's not as simple as shorter time sig -> longer time sig contracts or expands the activation. What I want to know is if we're close to being able to calculate the discrepancy or if anybody has any ideas.
_________________


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: ThunderShade15
UndeadFil13QC  
 




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 3313
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what you're trying to pull, but a typical activation does last exactly 4 measures. However, depending on your lag setting, the moment when a measure starts in terms of how it burns down SP may vary.

Your Judas Kiss example is definitely not a very easy activation. You have to hit the orange sustain as early as possible and activate immediately, because you want to get at least 2 beats of activation into the 4/4 measure to make sure you don't overlap. It has to be possible, but I can't test it myself. A positive lag setting may or may not move the measures backwards and make it even harder to not overlap, I'm not exactly sure how it works. It could be the opposite, for what we know.

For Assassin though I'm kinda clueless. I could never get any close to getting a regular squeeze from the first activation, no matter how hard I tried. I would blame it on the game itself for being a half-assed release, to be honest.

Another typical example would be The Number of the Beast's first activation. Notice that it starts on a 6/4 measure and ends on a 3/4 measure. If you're not careful you might not get the 3-chord under SP because the 3/4 measure, which eats up SP quicker, may kick in before you think it has. As a Wii player I've had that happen a lot, and I know Wii wants you to hit notes earlier than PS3 and 360 so that might be why I've experienced it so much.

Can you provide any more examples of activations being shorter than they should? I don't think I've seen a lot and I don't think there is some sort of discrepancy you can deduct depending on a song-specific time signature fluctuation.
_________________

ULTIMATE GOAL: FC I'm The One on GH: Van Halen Expert Guitar
Solo 2A FC Count: 39 (Best runs: many -1s, three outro chokes and two 100% overstrums!)

Side goals: GH Expert Vocals Full Series FC [4/8] | Rock Band Expert Bass Full Series FC [8/9]




47|64|30|70|41|86|49|48|85|46|93|42 (10|65|10)
Full Series Total: 701/702 (786/787)
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Send e-mail Wii Friend Code: 3977978993176180
newuser1234  
 




Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1273

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndeadFil13QC wrote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to pull, but a typical activation does last exactly 4 measures. However, depending on your lag setting, the moment when a measure starts in terms of how it burns down SP may vary.

Your Judas Kiss example is definitely not a very easy activation. You have to hit the orange sustain as early as possible and activate immediately, because you want to get at least 2 beats of activation into the 4/4 measure to make sure you don't overlap. It has to be possible, but I can't test it myself. A positive lag setting may or may not move the measures backwards and make it even harder to not overlap, I'm not exactly sure how it works. It could be the opposite, for what we know.


i've tried the judas kiss C2 activation a bunch of times hitting the orange sustain as early as possible and i've never come close. that's why i posted the modified path on pathhero. still not sure what the first place score hit in his run
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ThunderShade  
 




Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndeadFil13QC wrote:
Your Judas Kiss example is definitely not a very easy activation. You have to hit the orange sustain as early as possible and activate immediately, because you want to get at least 2 beats of activation into the 4/4 measure to make sure you don't overlap. It has to be possible, but I can't test it myself.


It should be possible, but it doesn't seem like it. I can hit similar immediate compressed activations in GH1 with the pause trick (TK65, MTAF. Frankenstein) so I should be able to hit this easily, but nope.

As for more examples, that's difficult to answer because this is pretty rare and the main other example I can remember (Cliffs of Dover 1st act on Hard should not have the squeeze that people have hit, yet it's apparently not that hard) involves whammy so then it's harder to be as sure.

I'm pretty sure time signature changes are the sole culprit here. I've just tried a custom with the same time signatures (different BPMs though) as that area in The Judas Kiss and the activation lasts too long. The "obvious" explanation that SP lasts longer in 10/4 measures doesn't work, since if everything is in 10/4 then the length seems to be what you'd normally expect.

Interestingly I also tried doing the Assassin time signature change in a custom but it didn't come up short. I'm guessing that 3 and WT handle this differently which is a bit annoying.

My current untested theory on this is that the game uses the beat lines as "markers" and then just extrapolates inbetween them as required, and that the markers are chosen a bit incorrectly for 10/4 time. I considered the possibility that the game just extrapolates between measure start/end beat lines and then a changing BPM could screw with things, but I've tried that with a custom and ruled that out.
_________________


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: ThunderShade15
UndeadFil13QC  
 




Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 3313
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderShade wrote:
My current untested theory on this is that the game uses the beat lines as "markers" and then just extrapolates inbetween them as required, and that the markers are chosen a bit incorrectly for 10/4 time. I considered the possibility that the game just extrapolates between measure start/end beat lines and then a changing BPM could screw with things, but I've tried that with a custom and ruled that out.


Either that or the markers aren't exactly lined up with the measure lines. It would make sense in this case that said markers would be set a tiny bit after the measure lines, making you get less than half a measure (2 beats) in the 4/4 one and more than half a measure (5 beats) in the 10/4 one. Perhaps changing the lag calibration would move this marker as well?

EDIT: Yes, I meant before, not after. I was kinda mentally dead when I typed that.
_________________

ULTIMATE GOAL: FC I'm The One on GH: Van Halen Expert Guitar
Solo 2A FC Count: 39 (Best runs: many -1s, three outro chokes and two 100% overstrums!)

Side goals: GH Expert Vocals Full Series FC [4/8] | Rock Band Expert Bass Full Series FC [8/9]




47|64|30|70|41|86|49|48|85|46|93|42 (10|65|10)
Full Series Total: 701/702 (786/787)


Last edited by UndeadFil13QC on Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Wiki User Page Send private message Send e-mail Wii Friend Code: 3977978993176180
ThunderShade  
 




Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndeadFil13QC wrote:
Either that or the markers aren't exactly lined up with the measure lines. It would make sense in this case that said markers would be set a tiny bit after the measure lines, making you get less than half a measure (2 beats) in the 4/4 one and more than half a measure (5 beats) in the 10/4 one. Perhaps changing the lag calibration would move this marker as well?


If I'm understanding you correctly, we'd need the markers to be before the measure lines, not the other way around. Assuming all gaps were the same length of time, we'd need the gaps to be of size at least 260 ms or so to make the activation impossible. I find that quite implausible. Figuring out how much we'd need to make the NotB first squeeze impossible is a bit fiddly since the end note is sitting at the start of a 3/4 measure, but since you're already having to squeeze I'd imagine the answer is "not nearly as much".

It'd be interesting to see if this activation were at least possible with Easy Expert. I can't give it a go right now, but newuser if you're around then could you try that?
_________________


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: ThunderShade15
newuser1234  
 




Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1273

PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderShade wrote:
UndeadFil13QC wrote:
Either that or the markers aren't exactly lined up with the measure lines. It would make sense in this case that said markers would be set a tiny bit after the measure lines, making you get less than half a measure (2 beats) in the 4/4 one and more than half a measure (5 beats) in the 10/4 one. Perhaps changing the lag calibration would move this marker as well?


If I'm understanding you correctly, we'd need the markers to be before the measure lines, not the other way around. Assuming all gaps were the same length of time, we'd need the gaps to be of size at least 260 ms or so to make the activation impossible. I find that quite implausible. Figuring out how much we'd need to make the NotB first squeeze impossible is a bit fiddly since the end note is sitting at the start of a 3/4 measure, but since you're already having to squeeze I'd imagine the answer is "not nearly as much".

It'd be interesting to see if this activation were at least possible with Easy Expert. I can't give it a go right now, but newuser if you're around then could you try that?


i don't want to unlock easy expert on gh3 since i use quickplay to get 1sts on the main setlist (too lazy to redo in career). then i'd have to take a video after every first
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ThunderShade  
 




Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

newuser1234 wrote:
ThunderShade wrote:
UndeadFil13QC wrote:
Either that or the markers aren't exactly lined up with the measure lines. It would make sense in this case that said markers would be set a tiny bit after the measure lines, making you get less than half a measure (2 beats) in the 4/4 one and more than half a measure (5 beats) in the 10/4 one. Perhaps changing the lag calibration would move this marker as well?


If I'm understanding you correctly, we'd need the markers to be before the measure lines, not the other way around. Assuming all gaps were the same length of time, we'd need the gaps to be of size at least 260 ms or so to make the activation impossible. I find that quite implausible. Figuring out how much we'd need to make the NotB first squeeze impossible is a bit fiddly since the end note is sitting at the start of a 3/4 measure, but since you're already having to squeeze I'd imagine the answer is "not nearly as much".

It'd be interesting to see if this activation were at least possible with Easy Expert. I can't give it a go right now, but newuser if you're around then could you try that?


i don't want to unlock easy expert on gh3 since i use quickplay to get 1sts on the main setlist (too lazy to redo in career). then i'd have to take a video after every first


It's alright, I tried it myself. Hit the orange hold half a beat early and the activation still easily went to the second note of the SP phrase. Yeah absolutely impossible lol.
_________________


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: ThunderShade15
newuser1234  
 




Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 1273

PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderShade wrote:
newuser1234 wrote:
ThunderShade wrote:
UndeadFil13QC wrote:
Either that or the markers aren't exactly lined up with the measure lines. It would make sense in this case that said markers would be set a tiny bit after the measure lines, making you get less than half a measure (2 beats) in the 4/4 one and more than half a measure (5 beats) in the 10/4 one. Perhaps changing the lag calibration would move this marker as well?


If I'm understanding you correctly, we'd need the markers to be before the measure lines, not the other way around. Assuming all gaps were the same length of time, we'd need the gaps to be of size at least 260 ms or so to make the activation impossible. I find that quite implausible. Figuring out how much we'd need to make the NotB first squeeze impossible is a bit fiddly since the end note is sitting at the start of a 3/4 measure, but since you're already having to squeeze I'd imagine the answer is "not nearly as much".

It'd be interesting to see if this activation were at least possible with Easy Expert. I can't give it a go right now, but newuser if you're around then could you try that?


i don't want to unlock easy expert on gh3 since i use quickplay to get 1sts on the main setlist (too lazy to redo in career). then i'd have to take a video after every first


It's alright, I tried it myself. Hit the orange hold half a beat early and the activation still easily went to the second note of the SP phrase. Yeah absolutely impossible lol.


ok well thats a relief because i have tried in the past and never came close. do you think this is the 1st place path?

http://pathhero.codemann8.com/view.php?path=27832
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ThunderShade  
 




Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 345
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

newuser1234 wrote:
ok well thats a relief because i have tried in the past and never came close. do you think this is the 1st place path?

http://pathhero.codemann8.com/view.php?path=27832


Had a quick look and don't immediately see anything up with that. The only thing I'd add is to see if you can push the solo act back one note. Since SP seems to last longer in that area it's worth a go and could be an easy 200.
_________________


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message XBL Gamertag: ThunderShade15
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ScoreHero Forum Index -> Technique, Style, and Gameplay -> Guitar/Bass All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Copyright © 2006-2018 ScoreHero, LLC
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy


Powered by phpBB