Oh My God...Part 2

[deshtruction]

hmmmm....so is that as hard as FC'ing Jordan or something? I'm a Noob to that game
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[deshtruction]

hmmmm....so is that as hard as FC'ing Jordan or something? I'm a Noob to that game
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[N00bSaib0t]

[N00bSaib0t]

[Matt]

That's ok, I was trying to stop any arguments before they got personal and/or malicious.

My counterpoint was that I feel that IIDX is beginner friendly, because you have various options such as hi speeds, autoscratch, easy lifebar, and 5 key option. I also feel that beginner friendly doesn't mean it's easy; I think beginner friendly means it's easy to grasp the concept of the game and understand the goals.

I will agree it is not an easy game to get good at, though.

[Matt]

That's ok, I was trying to stop any arguments before they got personal and/or malicious.

My counterpoint was that I feel that IIDX is beginner friendly, because you have various options such as hi speeds, autoscratch, easy lifebar, and 5 key option. I also feel that beginner friendly doesn't mean it's easy; I think beginner friendly means it's easy to grasp the concept of the game and understand the goals.

I will agree it is not an easy game to get good at, though.

[Whodi]

N00b brought up most of the points why I think Beginner and 5-key aren't a good replacement for the real thing. Autoscratch does not teach you how to score on GOBWS. Easy lifebar does help a lot, but there should be ways to get used to the normal lifebar. There's no reason why there need to be Light7 songs as hard as Stoic. GH and DDR are good examples of how the difficulty curve should be. Most songs on Easy on GH and Beginner on DDR are roughly the same difficulty and there's lots of room for new people to practice. If they want to ramp up the difficuty, crank it up to Medium or Hard.

Please don't be under the impression that it's too hard for me. I've played it for a long time and I think I'm pretty decent. I'm just thinking from a global perspective here. Releasing a top-heavy game would work fine for me, because that's the level I play at, but from a game designer's perspective it's not a spectacular idea to make the bar start so high. Adding a difficulty below Light7, an actual game mode unlike Beginner, would not affect us veteran players at all, and would make the game a lot more approachable. Just my opinion though.
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Pronounced WOAH-dee.
Previously known as Twisted Silence, competitive DDR/IIDX player.

[Whodi]

N00b brought up most of the points why I think Beginner and 5-key aren't a good replacement for the real thing. Autoscratch does not teach you how to score on GOBWS. Easy lifebar does help a lot, but there should be ways to get used to the normal lifebar. There's no reason why there need to be Light7 songs as hard as Stoic. GH and DDR are good examples of how the difficulty curve should be. Most songs on Easy on GH and Beginner on DDR are roughly the same difficulty and there's lots of room for new people to practice. If they want to ramp up the difficuty, crank it up to Medium or Hard.

Please don't be under the impression that it's too hard for me. I've played it for a long time and I think I'm pretty decent. I'm just thinking from a global perspective here. Releasing a top-heavy game would work fine for me, because that's the level I play at, but from a game designer's perspective it's not a spectacular idea to make the bar start so high. Adding a difficulty below Light7, an actual game mode unlike Beginner, would not affect us veteran players at all, and would make the game a lot more approachable. Just my opinion though.
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Pronounced WOAH-dee.
Previously known as Twisted Silence, competitive DDR/IIDX player.

[N00bSaib0t]

whodi hit that one on the head with the stoic L7 example. the easiest difficulty for that song is 7*, why? i love stoic, but it was so long before i could play it. and some songs are just dumb. i have 1 L7 song to pass on the games i own, g2, a 6*. i can play 6* and 7* on another, why cant i pass this?

and like i said with the 5key mod, when IIDX first came out(after 5key beatmania) all the good players even had to relearn how to play because of the extra two keys, so 5key just slows people down. my brother has been playing longer than me and he started on IIDX with the 5key mod turned on, he has trouble with 6* stuff on 7key but can pass 8* and 9* with 5key turned on. you dont learn what you need to when you turn on stuff like that. imagine being able to turn off the orange and blue frets in GH and playing on expert. what are you learning there?

[N00bSaib0t]

whodi hit that one on the head with the stoic L7 example. the easiest difficulty for that song is 7*, why? i love stoic, but it was so long before i could play it. and some songs are just dumb. i have 1 L7 song to pass on the games i own, g2, a 6*. i can play 6* and 7* on another, why cant i pass this?

and like i said with the 5key mod, when IIDX first came out(after 5key beatmania) all the good players even had to relearn how to play because of the extra two keys, so 5key just slows people down. my brother has been playing longer than me and he started on IIDX with the 5key mod turned on, he has trouble with 6* stuff on 7key but can pass 8* and 9* with 5key turned on. you dont learn what you need to when you turn on stuff like that. imagine being able to turn off the orange and blue frets in GH and playing on expert. what are you learning there?

[JDM]

If L7 songs as difficult as Stoic were commonplace, you might have a point.

[JDM]

If L7 songs as difficult as Stoic were commonplace, you might have a point.

[Matt]

If you compare it to DDR, you cant fairly compare L7 to DDR's beginner. You can compare DD'rs beginner to IIDX's beginner... both max out at level 3, have kinda half-assed ratings, etc.

Remember though, that in DDR, you have many 6's and even a 7 (La Seniorita Virtual) on light mode. I'm not saying that its good that they made stoic so hard, but I think it was kind of meant to be a boss song (despite being an easy 12 from what I hear).

[Matt]

If you compare it to DDR, you cant fairly compare L7 to DDR's beginner. You can compare DD'rs beginner to IIDX's beginner... both max out at level 3, have kinda half-assed ratings, etc.

Remember though, that in DDR, you have many 6's and even a 7 (La Seniorita Virtual) on light mode. I'm not saying that its good that they made stoic so hard, but I think it was kind of meant to be a boss song (despite being an easy 12 from what I hear).

[N00bSaib0t]

[N00bSaib0t]

[MazriMTaiM]

Learning how to follow SEVEN keys and a turntable on the screen is never going to be a quick and easy process, even with beginner mode, 5-key, and autoscratch. It's all dependant on the user's ability to adapt. If you're struggling with 1* songs, then you need to work at it more, and not give up because the game didn't hand the clear to you off the bat.

IIDX RED AC is not a good example of how beginner mode works, since it was majorly tweaked in the next version due to how shitty it was. It's now more like what has been seen in the home versions for some time, and it never outright says "Why not use 5-key autoscratch?" but it's still an option.

I've hosted tournaments for beginners before to give them a chance to play the game, and the majority were able to figure out the game in a couple songs. Sure they'll fail 2* songs with a C, but they like it and wnt to play more. They know it's tough but they keep playing. I've seen people who put real effort into it and go from beginner to clearing all of light 7 in a couple weeks.

Lastly, why can't they have difficult stuff on Light 7? Would you like Stoic to be 7/11/12, which is a much smoother jump than say - 4/11/12. Just because you like the song and heard it in DDR does not give you permission to get pissy when you can't play it. It's a goal then, to reach the song you want to play. They add difficult light 7 songs because then every difficulty has the full range to play on. I know some people who would refuse to play 7key ever...well, this is a good way for them not to improve further, since stuff like Stoic, G2, Gigadelic, and so on are there to keep them going. 7key would seem not to bad if you pass Gigadelic L7 right?

Whew, what a first post. ^^; Sup Sean.

[MazriMTaiM]

Learning how to follow SEVEN keys and a turntable on the screen is never going to be a quick and easy process, even with beginner mode, 5-key, and autoscratch. It's all dependant on the user's ability to adapt. If you're struggling with 1* songs, then you need to work at it more, and not give up because the game didn't hand the clear to you off the bat.

IIDX RED AC is not a good example of how beginner mode works, since it was majorly tweaked in the next version due to how shitty it was. It's now more like what has been seen in the home versions for some time, and it never outright says "Why not use 5-key autoscratch?" but it's still an option.

I've hosted tournaments for beginners before to give them a chance to play the game, and the majority were able to figure out the game in a couple songs. Sure they'll fail 2* songs with a C, but they like it and wnt to play more. They know it's tough but they keep playing. I've seen people who put real effort into it and go from beginner to clearing all of light 7 in a couple weeks.

Lastly, why can't they have difficult stuff on Light 7? Would you like Stoic to be 7/11/12, which is a much smoother jump than say - 4/11/12. Just because you like the song and heard it in DDR does not give you permission to get pissy when you can't play it. It's a goal then, to reach the song you want to play. They add difficult light 7 songs because then every difficulty has the full range to play on. I know some people who would refuse to play 7key ever...well, this is a good way for them not to improve further, since stuff like Stoic, G2, Gigadelic, and so on are there to keep them going. 7key would seem not to bad if you pass Gigadelic L7 right?

Whew, what a first post. ^^; Sup Sean.

[Matt]

Welcome MazriMTaiM! How was the trip over here from vjarmy? :p

[Matt]

Welcome MazriMTaiM! How was the trip over here from vjarmy? :p

[N00bSaib0t]

i dont mind stoic L7 personally, i can pass it. i just dont like how thats TECHNICALLY stoic on easy. IMO BMUS did this right, beginner was in the actual game mode and not in a seperate beginners mode. if stoic were in BMUS it would be selectable as beginner->normal->hyper->another. see how much better that looks to someone who just started this game? but sense beginner is there i guess thats just nitpicking, i think there should actually be an easy mode for beginners in the main game like BMUS has.

[N00bSaib0t]

i dont mind stoic L7 personally, i can pass it. i just dont like how thats TECHNICALLY stoic on easy. IMO BMUS did this right, beginner was in the actual game mode and not in a seperate beginners mode. if stoic were in BMUS it would be selectable as beginner->normal->hyper->another. see how much better that looks to someone who just started this game? but sense beginner is there i guess thats just nitpicking, i think there should actually be an easy mode for beginners in the main game like BMUS has.

[Matt]

Fair enough; have you seen happy sky yet though? HSCS did an excellent job in beginner mode... as in, the notes are on beat in all the 1's that I have seen, instead of seemingly random placements like a lot of red's beginner charts.

[Matt]

Fair enough; have you seen happy sky yet though? HSCS did an excellent job in beginner mode... as in, the notes are on beat in all the 1's that I have seen, instead of seemingly random placements like a lot of red's beginner charts.

[N00bSaib0t]

real beginner charts? thats awesome, sounds like BMUS beginner mode. i still play some of them, because they were good charts. V, colors, and snow come to mind as good beginner charts. and with a beginner mode like this where you still get to play the real game and not those stupid ass random charts(a la RED AC) its easier to get a beginner into the game.

anyway, now that i look at my description of BMUS with the way it handled beginner, it really depends on the game if its beginner friendly. playing on beginner isnt a degrading thing(atleast not to me), but having to go to a seperate mode for it is IMO. its like saying "you arent fit for game mode, play this instead". the way BMUS does it is like telling a beginner, "ok, here is game mode, and this is the difficulty you should start on. have fun, dont hurt yourself, you'll be playing on normal in no time", ddr does this same thing. japanese IIDX games are more like "you cant play L7? go to n00b mode now. j00 r t3h suxxorz".

short version- most japanese versions suck for newbies, so they should get BMUS if they want to learn the game and get the harder japanese versions later.

[N00bSaib0t]

real beginner charts? thats awesome, sounds like BMUS beginner mode. i still play some of them, because they were good charts. V, colors, and snow come to mind as good beginner charts. and with a beginner mode like this where you still get to play the real game and not those stupid ass random charts(a la RED AC) its easier to get a beginner into the game.

anyway, now that i look at my description of BMUS with the way it handled beginner, it really depends on the game if its beginner friendly. playing on beginner isnt a degrading thing(atleast not to me), but having to go to a seperate mode for it is IMO. its like saying "you arent fit for game mode, play this instead". the way BMUS does it is like telling a beginner, "ok, here is game mode, and this is the difficulty you should start on. have fun, dont hurt yourself, you'll be playing on normal in no time", ddr does this same thing. japanese IIDX games are more like "you cant play L7? go to n00b mode now. j00 r t3h suxxorz".

short version- most japanese versions suck for newbies, so they should get BMUS if they want to learn the game and get the harder japanese versions later.

[MazriMTaiM]

Matt: The ride wasn't too bad. Enough talking with Phr34k about this site got me here, really. The site looks pretty nice. I'll be sure to post more in other places soon, I won't be stuck in just IIDX mode. ;)

N00bSaib0t: Your last post was dead on, really. They don't want people to play Beginner forever, so they really do encourage you to move on. Even the instructions in BMUS do this IIRC. If you challenge yourself to tougher stuff, you're bound to advance faster than staying in a zone you're comfortable with. Though if you're comfortable, you don't necessarily have to push yourself.

[MazriMTaiM]

Matt: The ride wasn't too bad. Enough talking with Phr34k about this site got me here, really. The site looks pretty nice. I'll be sure to post more in other places soon, I won't be stuck in just IIDX mode. ;)

N00bSaib0t: Your last post was dead on, really. They don't want people to play Beginner forever, so they really do encourage you to move on. Even the instructions in BMUS do this IIRC. If you challenge yourself to tougher stuff, you're bound to advance faster than staying in a zone you're comfortable with. Though if you're comfortable, you don't necessarily have to push yourself.

[Phr34k]

BRENT! *pounce*
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[Phr34k]

BRENT! *pounce*
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Rhythm Authors LLC
Director of Development
www.rhythmauthors.com