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Scoring System FAQ (cutoff calculation explained!)
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eXcelon969  





Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: Phoenix, AZ

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well it looks like still 4 SP phrases gets a full bar. so that didnt change

what changed is the whammy and the length a full bar lasts

full bar is 6 measures but that is probably known by now

i did a test on raw dog

the first whammy, in career mode i can get 'star power ready' just before the end of the hold

in coop i can not. but it's damn close

perhaps just one more pulse would do it.

that hold is 15-1/4 beats and i can not get SP out of it until i hit the final two notes in the phrase on coop.

since these things seem to be based on not-so random math (meaning i'm sure they didnt make it like 3.16784% per beat) i'm going to take a stab that it's 3% per beat in coop, thus requiring 8-1/3 beats for 25% bar or 25 beats for 75% (plus 25% for the sp phrase)

hence the rawdog hold is 1/4 beat more than necessary in career mode to get 1/2 bar, but 1-1/12 beat less than necessary in coop.

anyone find a 8 beat hold and then a 8.5 beat hold to test this on?

it's possible that is it exactly 8.5 beats and the % is like 3.0xxx% per beat.

video might be necessary which i do not have
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PriestMLH  





Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 1958
Location: Evansville, IN

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure it's been determined it was 10 beats of whammying to get half a bar. I tested it on the John the Fisherman bass hold right at the beginning and counted 10 beats.

Everything else is pretty much been spoken for:

4 SP phrases = Full Bar
6 measures of SP for full bar of co-op
3 measures for half bar, etc...


Anything else to be found out?
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eXcelon969  





Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: Phoenix, AZ

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i thought the 10 whammy beats were for the OPM demo where you needed 6 SP for full bar, making each SP only 1/6 the bar....

so to get 1/2 bar you need 33& from whammy which is 33/3.33 = 10 beats

different in real game
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PriestMLH  





Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 1958
Location: Evansville, IN

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well...I'm pretty sure my JtF Co-op video shows 10 beats for the first whammy hold.
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CrackerRiley  





Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 3085

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there another topic we have here that explains that whammy doesn't increase score. I'm referring people to this right now because they can't get into their thick skulls. And if they don't have GH1 they can't test it on Iron man... actually LTMR is a good song to test it on too... I'll tell em that.
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CrackerRiley  





Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 3085

PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

people! i am blowing peoples minds over at the xbox forums about how to calculate 5* cutoffs and 2.8x ALWAYS will give you a 5*! this is the craziest argument I've ever had! ex...

CrackerRiley wrote:
alright here we go... here is your test.
I will choose the song Trogdor since it is the shortest and you can perform this test multiple times.
Trogdor's base score is... 39,448. remember this number.
Now, play the song and record your final score.
Divide your final score by 39,448....
alright here is the big finish! the number you get from this calculation will be..... YOUR AVERAGE MULTIPLIER!
it is that simple. example: your final score is say 100,000...
100000/39448 = 2.53498 (given to me by my trusty TI-86). go to the more stats screen and it will say your average multiplier is... 2.5! amazing, i know.

now about your test. yes, you can have different scores with the same multiplier. you know why... because the game rounds your multiplier to only 1 decimal point. score 100,000 on trogdor and it will say your multiplier is 2.5... score 101,775 and it will say your average multiplier is 2.5! wow! 101775/39448=2.57997. the game does not round up...
end of case... there it is... do the damn test and you will see.. i guarantee. ask me if you have any questions about this complicated test...


the guy said he did a test where he had different scores but the same multiplier... well gee, i wonder how that could possibly happen...
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DaneH  





Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 640
Location: Walkerton, Ontario

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that helped out quite a bit
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vector2  





Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are the average multipliers required for six, seven, and eight starring?
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Barbaloot  





Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 1583

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vector2 wrote:
What are the average multipliers required for six, seven, and eight starring?


3.6, 4.4, and 5.2, respectively.

I have a different question. I noticed that Yes We Can's base score is 61,390. However, it has exactly 300 hold points (pre-multiplier), and this fact is reinforced that all the top scores end in 00. How is it possible, then, that the base score is not divisible by 50?
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ChainsawSolo  





Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Posts: 78
Location: Madison, WI

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCirri wrote:
I've just confirmed the star power meter fills up after completing a combo 25% within 0.333 secs.

I've also been testing the allowable timing windows for hitting notes. It seems the timing window corresponds to the amount of time that a note overlaps the fret icons at the bottom of the screen. This implies that the timing window is dependent on the scroll rate of the screen which is different for each difficulty. Hence the timing window is smaller on Expert and larger on Easy (since notes will be overlapping the fret icons for a longer period of time on Easy).

Based on analyzing frames, I've calculated the timing window on expert to be 0.1667 secs (a sixth of a second).

Note that this is exactly half of the time it takes to fill SP after finishing a combo (a third of a second).

However, after further testing, this relationship between the rate of SP filling up and the timing window does not hold true for other difficulties. While the timing window becomes larger for easier difficulties, the rate at which the SP meter fills up remains constant (25% within 0.333 secs).

This may sound confusing, but I wanted to document my results on here so I have them to develop my optimal scoring program as accurately as possible.


I am very interested in the timing window. How exactly did you disprove that the timing window could be proportional to a beat constant? I've been trying to find an experiment that disproves that notion for some time now but I have not the proper equipment to grab and analyze frames so I must depend upon others' results for now...
I have been trying to number crunch the difference in how far one can squeeze an activation in a fast tempo song and a slow tempo song across multiple runs and average them as statistical proof but my brain keeps melting during data processing.
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Barbaloot  





Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 1583

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's just absurd. There is no way the timing window is 4 times as large in Red Lottery as it is in Tattooed Love Boys.
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ChainsawSolo  





Joined: 17 Mar 2007
Posts: 78
Location: Madison, WI

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, the timing window issue may also be confusing because some of us may be talking about a unit of *time duration* and some of us may be talking about a *distance length* on the note chart and than confusion happens because units of measurement don't match.
Therefore, I am going to be very careful and specific about my wording for the rest of this post which is going to be some kind of idea review and discussion about the concept of the 'timing window'.
First of all, we must examine why defining the timing window size is so damn important: Hitting an SP note with sustain early and whammying instantly for the duration of the timing window does not provide extra points, but it does provide a small extra bit of star power duration. These little bits often add up and make the critical difference in being able to squeeze more notes out of an activation.
I want to be able to calculate from the note chart exactly how much of this 'bonus SP" is theoretically possible so that I can plot my squeezes out as precisely on paper as possible because I am a giant math nerd and have no life.
So, than from now on in this post when I talk about a "hitbox" I am really talking about the length drawn on the note chart which exactly covers the timing window, not the duration of time that the timing window lasts for. Of course, this operates under the assumption that the timing window extends an equal distance on both sides of the center of the target note. However, that is pretty common sense so I think it is okay to make that assumption.

There are three possible theories I can come up with about how the size of the hitbox is determined:

IDEA A: (what JCirri wrote, I'll paraphrase as best I can)
A note counts as being hit if a strum occurs anytime any part of the circular note icon is touching a part of the fret burner line.

IDEA B: The hitbox is defined as a distance from the middle of the note equal to some small fraction of whatever a beat's length is. The fraction is a constant number X which could be found through experiments. This is the assumption that I personally have been under and trying to find X has been my goal for a while now.

IDEA C: The hitbox is defined as a distance from the middle of the note equal to some (very small) fraction of whatever a measure's length is. This would mean that the hitbox size would change depending on the time signature.

All right, let us assume for now that IDEA A is true. What does this mean?
When the tempo of a song is faster, the line markings for what a beat is are closer together relative to the constant size of a round note icon, right? Then whammying an SP sustain note maximally early to harvest SP would yield more power on a fast song than on a slower song because SP is derived per beat of whammy and the exact same hitbox would cover more beats on the faster song than on the slower song!

This conclusion is separate from the effects of a different scroll rate (change in difficulty setting, hyperspeed cheat), which makes my head hurt to think about right now so I am going to take a break and mull it over later.
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lassise  





Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Ellicott City, MD

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks, you rock!
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Barfo  





Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 2596

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChainsawSolo wrote:
IDEA A: (what JCirri wrote, I'll paraphrase as best I can)
A note counts as being hit if a strum occurs anytime any part of the circular note icon is touching a part of the fret burner line.

IDEA B: The hitbox is defined as a distance from the middle of the note equal to some small fraction of whatever a beat's length is. The fraction is a constant number X which could be found through experiments. This is the assumption that I personally have been under and trying to find X has been my goal for a while now.

IDEA C: The hitbox is defined as a distance from the middle of the note equal to some (very small) fraction of whatever a measure's length is. This would mean that the hitbox size would change depending on the time signature.

Baed on JCirri's data of those three hypotheses only the first one fits the data which says that the timing window in real time is constant across all songs for one difficulty. Also ideas B and C are esily disproven by looking at red lottery compared to say Tattooed love boys (as Barbaloot pointed out previously) and noticing that the window is not growing by a factor of 2.5 or whatever. Or look at Six and note that in the bridge (?) section the BPM is exactly half the rest of the song and note that the window does not expand to double size (time-wise) or keep the same proportion of the beat (hitbox-wise) for this section.

The observations and such about what that means in terms of extra SP gain rate etc and size of what your define as the hitbox are all derived quantities based on that fundamental calculation. People poking around in the cracked dtb files (?) could probably find that quantity, especially if they are knowing they are lookign for 0.16667 because it turns out to be the same in GH2 as GH1.
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Barfo  





Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 2596

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Barbaloot wrote:
I have a different question. I noticed that Yes We Can's base score is 61,390. However, it has exactly 300 hold points (pre-multiplier), and this fact is reinforced that all the top scores end in 00. How is it possible, then, that the base score is not divisible by 50?

Good notice.

It looks like the way that the game calculates base score and the way that hte game awards points disagree. Because if you look at the X360 ghex charts you get that same base score (at least in the part witht he holds i obviously didnt add upt he whole song), yet i know form personal experience that those four holds at the end are all worth 150 in-game, and not 148. (Im ignoring the PS2 ghex charts because that was a song that had the additional error in the old versions of ghex). toss in those 8 poitns and the same thing with one of those two other holds and thats your ten points missing. When the game calculates the base score it apparently follows the same formula as the current ghex method, but when it awards poitns its obviously doing the rounding cutoffs ever so slightly differently.
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